Sunday, December 11, 2005
Let's recap
Kevin Drum has a question about the case of John Gilmore. Apparently Gilmore is in court contesting his conviction for violating a "secret law":
Kevin wants to know if there really are such things as secret laws and, more broadly, what the fuck is going on here?
So I thought I'd put it to any of you in hopes that you could help him out.
Personally, I've got a question of my own. Assuming for the moment that there are "secret laws", we can also add to the pile: the legalization of torture, the secret prison network, the gutting of habeas corpus, a permanent state of war and "war powers" for the Executive (didn't they used to call this martial law?), the Patriot Act renewed, peace movement organizations making the Fed's terrorist watch list, violations of almost every International law known to man including waging a war of aggression, &c....
What else am I forgetting?
So at what point exactly do we say that we're living in an illegitimate police state? When can we consider ourselves no longer citizens, but subjects of a fascist regime? What do they have to do in order for us to withdraw consent? How far do they have to go? Start shooting people in the street? Muzzle the press? Putting people in camps? Honestly, I'd like to know where the line is for any of you.
And if we do decide to withdraw consent, what then?
Update -
One more for the list: The Pentagon is gathering intelligence domestically.
Update II -
The NSA is eavesdropping on American citizens without court approval.
posted by Scats : 12/11/2005 10:59:00 AM
The Bush administration...claims that the ID requirement is necessary for security but has refused to identify any actual regulation requiring it.
A three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals seemed skeptical of the Bush administration's defense of secret laws and regulations but stopped short of suggesting that such a rule would be necessarily unconstitutional.
"How do we know there's an order?" Judge Thomas Nelson asked. "Because you said there was?"
....The Justice Department has said it could identify the secret law under seal, which would be available to the 9th Circuit but not necessarily Gilmore's lawyers. But any public description would not be permitted, the department said.
Kevin wants to know if there really are such things as secret laws and, more broadly, what the fuck is going on here?
So I thought I'd put it to any of you in hopes that you could help him out.
Personally, I've got a question of my own. Assuming for the moment that there are "secret laws", we can also add to the pile: the legalization of torture, the secret prison network, the gutting of habeas corpus, a permanent state of war and "war powers" for the Executive (didn't they used to call this martial law?), the Patriot Act renewed, peace movement organizations making the Fed's terrorist watch list, violations of almost every International law known to man including waging a war of aggression, &c....
What else am I forgetting?
So at what point exactly do we say that we're living in an illegitimate police state? When can we consider ourselves no longer citizens, but subjects of a fascist regime? What do they have to do in order for us to withdraw consent? How far do they have to go? Start shooting people in the street? Muzzle the press? Putting people in camps? Honestly, I'd like to know where the line is for any of you.
And if we do decide to withdraw consent, what then?
Update -
One more for the list: The Pentagon is gathering intelligence domestically.
Update II -
The NSA is eavesdropping on American citizens without court approval.
posted by Scats : 12/11/2005 10:59:00 AM
